Election and Predestination
Alright, so I know right off the bat, this may hit a nerve with some people, but my intention is simply to generate a lively discussion here.
So, without further ado, we know that the doctrine of election is unconditional for mankind (God elects those whom He wills)--but, doesn't that sound kinda unfair to those who might actually be the elect, to know that there are certain people that penultimately are going to heaven, and that some just aren't? It kinda raises the question of free will, and how limited it really is with such a doctrine. In a sense, it also raises the question of, "Could I have possibly rejected God's gift of salvation when it was offered to me?"
Not to say that the Bible has any contradictions, but, we all know that God desires that all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth (I Timothy 2:4), but at the same time, Romans 8:29-30 clearly states:
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born amongst many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
and II Thessalonians 2:13 also states:
"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God had from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification, of the Spirit, and belief to the Truth."
That said, Paul's clearly implying that there are specific few who will be saved. Now we know this is true because there will be those who'll reject the gift of salvation--but, the key thing here is that He had already predestinated certain individuals before the foundation of the world ("For whom He did foreknow"), and therefore, if someone were to be offered the gift of salvation, and they weren't predestined to be saved, then they would not be saved?
However, Exodus 33:19 strikes me as somewhat unjust;
"I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the Name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
At the same time time, God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). I hate to say this, but I really don't understand this, and it appears to be a contradiction. I'm not say it is a contradiction, I'm just saying it appears to be, simply because I don't understand it (Which is obviously why I've made this a discussion). I'm not doubting God's sovereignty here, of course He knows who will be saved and who won't, but the word "predestinated" kinda confuses me. It seems unjust for Jesus to tell us to preach the Gospel to the whole world (Mark 16:15), and then at the same time, He'll only predestinate those whom He already elected.
Basically, is the call for salvation really for all, or only to the elect? Or, are the elect those who accept the gift of salvation? In other words, did God look from eternity and foresaw who would call upon Jesus and be saved, and that those were the ones He was refering to when speaking to the elect (At the same time, not to imply that it's man's free will that saves him, it's obviously still Jesus)? Better yet, when God refers to the those whom He elects and predestinates, is speaking from a divine perspective which we cannot understand, or is it actually from a human perspective, one which we should be able to understand and see it as black and white (Which is why it seems unjust)?
So, without further ado, we know that the doctrine of election is unconditional for mankind (God elects those whom He wills)--but, doesn't that sound kinda unfair to those who might actually be the elect, to know that there are certain people that penultimately are going to heaven, and that some just aren't? It kinda raises the question of free will, and how limited it really is with such a doctrine. In a sense, it also raises the question of, "Could I have possibly rejected God's gift of salvation when it was offered to me?"
Not to say that the Bible has any contradictions, but, we all know that God desires that all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth (I Timothy 2:4), but at the same time, Romans 8:29-30 clearly states:
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born amongst many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
and II Thessalonians 2:13 also states:
"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God had from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification, of the Spirit, and belief to the Truth."
That said, Paul's clearly implying that there are specific few who will be saved. Now we know this is true because there will be those who'll reject the gift of salvation--but, the key thing here is that He had already predestinated certain individuals before the foundation of the world ("For whom He did foreknow"), and therefore, if someone were to be offered the gift of salvation, and they weren't predestined to be saved, then they would not be saved?
However, Exodus 33:19 strikes me as somewhat unjust;
"I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the Name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
At the same time time, God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). I hate to say this, but I really don't understand this, and it appears to be a contradiction. I'm not say it is a contradiction, I'm just saying it appears to be, simply because I don't understand it (Which is obviously why I've made this a discussion). I'm not doubting God's sovereignty here, of course He knows who will be saved and who won't, but the word "predestinated" kinda confuses me. It seems unjust for Jesus to tell us to preach the Gospel to the whole world (Mark 16:15), and then at the same time, He'll only predestinate those whom He already elected.
Basically, is the call for salvation really for all, or only to the elect? Or, are the elect those who accept the gift of salvation? In other words, did God look from eternity and foresaw who would call upon Jesus and be saved, and that those were the ones He was refering to when speaking to the elect (At the same time, not to imply that it's man's free will that saves him, it's obviously still Jesus)? Better yet, when God refers to the those whom He elects and predestinates, is speaking from a divine perspective which we cannot understand, or is it actually from a human perspective, one which we should be able to understand and see it as black and white (Which is why it seems unjust)?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on -
hey Rondeen,
thank you for posting these links, the last one in particular REALLY did answer all my questions about this doctrine. however, i do recommend everyone else reading this, that they listen to all parts of this interview, as it would be easier to really understand this doctrine if one heard the first two parts before the third.
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Permalink Reply by Art on -
Hey Raheel, while on my time in another website, I discussed this issue with a certain person who agreed with many that said that salvation is predestined; to which I obviously disagreed. I hope you don't mind, but I wish to provide my arguments against her here; hoping that you may gain more insight on what the Bible separates as true and false. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
From: arturonavarrojr
Date: 6/26/2009 7:53:25 AM (PST)
Title: Re: Re: Art, something else
Barb,
I see that after reading your posts here that you somewhat carry the opinion of Arnold Murray when discussing the wheat and the tares. I must say that I disagree with him on this issue.
Did you know that I was a child of the devil once too? Yep, the lusts of my father, then, I willed to do, and did. But it was through the blood of Christ, through His death, burial, and resurrection, the Word of Truth of the Gospel, that I am here glad to say that I am no longer a child of Satan, as Elymas, but a son of God; as it is written, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
And I put you in remembrance then, sister, that you were as well, in your former state, before salvation. Let us not boast against the branches, lest we be cut off as well.
And who is to say that Elymas did not accept Jesus as Saviour eventually? Is that an unsound speculation, that after seeing the power of God, he would simply disregard it? Let us try and be optimistic about him. Even Simon the magician got saved, don't you know!
From: arturonavarrojr
Date: 6/27/2009 10:53:28 AM (PST)
Title: +Art, something else+
Barb,
I must implore you to refrain from upsetting yourself as you write, lest the Moderator mail you a complaint. I'm familiar with them.
Now, I "dragged" another man's opinion of this because they are both equal in argument, and I merely said that I disagree with it. And what is preconceived? I have studied his doctrine by watching his program, and have read his defence on the matter, and I must say that it does not line up with the Word. Of course, we all say that we believe the Holy Spirit is leading us to present something; but, shall not that doctrine which He has revealed be the only truth? And shall he reveal one truth in a passage and another truth by another in the same passage? Shall God contradict himself? No, but the truth is not in many paths, by many directions, but, as Jesus said, Narrow is the way. And what is wrong with bringing in another's commentary on a passage? Nothing, as long as it is sound; for we are mere men and women as well, right? We are just as they are, us both being commentators. What we write here is "man's prespective" according to everyone else as well.
Yes, unless anyone accepts Jesus, they are a child of the devil. Why? Because they are dead in trespasses and sins. They are lost; they are lost when they steal or curse or lie as little children, and still in the same state as they grow older, adding iniquity to iniquity; and we were as them. Yes, we were. Indeed, we were both enemies of God, for the Scripture has placed everyone under sin; and, because we were of the world, then enemies of God. But for us all Christ shed His blood, that Whosesoever believeth on Him hath eternal life. And no, I did not take the Scripture out of context; I, and anyone who is yet to accept Christ, is and is doing the will of their father the devil. The Bible says that, He that committeth sin is of the devil, and this includes everybody who had never accepted Christ. Therefore, if salvation came by predestination, by a preordination of who shall be the wheat, and who shall be the tares, then Christ died in vain. I beseech you therefore, Choose another interpretation.
From: arturonavarrojr
Date: 6/27/2009 1:33:32 PM (PST)
Title: Re: Re: +Art, something else+
Well, was there anything unsound in what I provided? Have you no knowledge of the Scriptures yourself that you were not able to piece them and align them to the Word of God? And if anything does not fit, please, demonstrate me. Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head.
Please read 1 John chapter 3.
Would Paul have been counted as one of the tares, as you mention? Please read on how he persecuted the Church of Christ in a horrendous way, yet the Lord saved him. It is not for us to decide who is a tare. The seed shall grow on its own, and the Lord shall know who was the tare and who was the wheat. Those who are tares are those who did not accept Christ, but revelled in unrighteousness; who, by not putting God first in their knowledge, as a result their minds were made reprobate; they are the darkness that hates the light, the Cain, the world, that hates Abel, the church. And was Cain therefore predestined to evil, unjustly damned before his birth? By no means! For it is written, And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. His works, what he chose to do with his hands of his own free will, made him a child of the devil (1 John 3.10). So it is with everyone now; for there is no one sinner better than another, for, as the Bible says, There is no difference, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Remember the wisdom of that old Baptist preacher, Bill Kanoy (this is a paraphrase from memory), Anybody who goes to heaven will have to thank God for it, and anyone who ends up in hell will have to thank himself.
What about the Jews? Please read Romans 11.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
As I have already said, that a person is a child of the devil when he does the will of his father. This is the only way for our minds to know such things. We cannot assume someone a child of the devil, and therefore shun him, this would be really unChrist like. Read the explanation of the parable itself, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. Them which do iniquity from their own free will, not a foreordination of their evil, for this would make no sense. This would make our just God unjust. All shall be judged according to their works.
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Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on
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"Therefore, if salvation came by predestination, by a preordination of who shall be the wheat, and who shall be the tares, then Christ died in vain."
Amen! but does this also imply that the atonement was only for those who'd receive Him? because the doctrine of election has a direct correlation with the atonement for sins. drifting off topic for a moment, there are many churches that tend to believe that the atonement was not the penalty of the law, but a substitute for the penalty, which allows God to remit the penalty by His grace when any sinner repents and believes in Jesus, thereby implying that one's eternal destiny would only be changed if he were to receive Christ. in other words, Jesus suffered for mankind so that God could forgive humans apart from punishment while still maintaining divine justice, thereby implying that the atonement was for all (even those who wouldn't receive Him)--which doesn't seem to make much sense, but i disgress.
but let's be really clear here, are you suggesting that the doctrine of election is from an extremist's point of view?
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Permalink Reply by Art on
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You are wise to digress; the topic should remain as to who will be saved and in what way, not as to the subtleties of God's path for redemption.
Well, that may be one way of putting the atonement in proper perspective. It is written, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Also, don't forget, And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Just last night, coincidently, my pastor's wife and another lady were speaking on this topic; and I agree with them that say that Whosoever will means anybody that wants, according to what he wants. We are Christians by choice, and Bible believers by conviction; neither the Holy Spirit, neither any man can make anybody saved if that person does not want salvation; even as man sinned willfully, so must man come to God willfully, repenting (which of itself is a decision of man, by God's help) of his sins. God help us!
Also, I don't want you to be confused with the word Predestination; for God to destinate anything should not alarm, neither does such a word limit His creation to the confines of the pagan doctrine of fate. Do we say that a bat was predestined for the cave, a lion to be a carnivore, or a plant to have roots? And if we do, then indeed they are. And so man was predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, Jesus; meaning that no one in this world, throughout the ages, was and is and ever will be complete until they be born again; for man was made to be in fellowship with God – this being only possible through His Son. Saying this, all mankind is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus, as many as are called; yet, rejection of His free gift of redemption and eternal life will cost them, and they will be punished.
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Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on
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gotcha. that really does clear everything up, because all this time i actually thought predestination and preordination were synonymous. haha
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Permalink Reply by Art on
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That's fine, Raheel. There are things which God did preordinate, but the salvation due to preference of some over others is not one of them. Anybody who wants salvation, let him come to Calvary, and see, believe, accept, and surrender to the God of salvation, and he will have what he wants. Remember, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Truly, not only for those who have already accepted salvation, but those who are of the world, who want His blood for the cleansing of sins.
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Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on
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Amen
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Permalink Reply by Todd on -
God made everything for his glory. But you also have to remember God is a loving God and it is not his desire that anyone should perish but have everlasting life. So just Because he knows everything doesn't take away from our own free will to obey him. He also says he is a fair God. God has given every man a fair opportunity to repent and come to him. Some people try to define "fair" by someone esle's position in life, no, God presents the opportunities to each man fairly according to his own life.
So what about the people who have never heard about Jesus?? I'm not sure of the name, but there was someone in the bible who looked out into the world one day and saw nature and the incredible things of the world and fell in love with the creator of these things because he saw that they were much bigger than him and that it could never have been created by human hands. So God told one of the apostles to go to this man and let him know that Jesus is the truth and the way to father, the one that he had fallen in love with. And so he gave his life to Jesus. Instinctively man knows that there is something greater than him but because of our corrupt hearts we chose to worship idols which makes God jealous. Whether it be a stone staute or money it is stil an idol. 'Seek and you will find". If the world searched after the creator of the world, God will let them find him because it is his will that all come to him.
So what about muslims and Jews, they believe in God but what's gonna make them belive that Jesus is the truth?? First of all, they do not know God. They know that there is a creator but God said that he has revealed his nature through one person alone and that is the son of the living God, Jesus Christ. Now we see that there is a choice whether you want to know God or know of God. So although we are lucky not to be born in the mud or at a bar, God never takes away our opportunities or our choices. Either way God receives glory. In the destruction of the wicked or the praise of the saints.
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Permalink Reply by Art on
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Well, although I agree with you somewhat, yet I don't believe that these issues should be discarded with intentional ignorance; for, after all, this is the strong meat of our faith, and should be partaken of all.
Had our spiritual brethren in the past never sought out the Scriptures for themselves, and brought out the truths of the word in regards to salvation, worship, and the life of the Christian, then we would have still been in the sin of popery of the past. Thanks to the truths which were brought out to light by seeking them, the truth reigned supreme with free course in the nations and hearts of men; no persecution nor attempt at prevention availing the wicked one.
Of course, there are many hard things found in Scripture, but I believe that with study and prayer, many things can be known for the benefit of the Church. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
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Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on
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Amen Art.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to me; seeing you have forgotten the Law of your God, I will also forget your children." -- Hosea 4:6
not condemn here or anything, but God does warn us of what He will do if we reject His knowledge. the entire Word of God should be understood, not just the "basics."
just to add on here, i already clearly mentioned at the beginning of this discussion that my intention isn't to turn the Christian community upside down, but rather to gain knowledge of the Truth, which i don't see to be a problem, but the contrary, it has everything to do with the edification of the saints. i've come out of this discussion not only with more knowledge of the Truth, but thankful for my salvation, and humility.
you're right, we won't ever understand a subject like this entirely, at least, not logically, but thankfully, God has provided enough Truth to know how He operates in terms of His foreknowledge, because He knew every man's heart would be left to forever ponder on such questions, and would not be at peace about it until he found any answers. questions such as purpose for one's life, creation, eternity, foreknowledge, election, the apocalypse etc. are things every person ever born thinks about, all of which God provides in His Word.
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." -- I Peter 3:15
the topic of election and predestination has already become very mainstream and is causing people now more than ever to hate God, simply because of a lack of knowledge, or, as Jeffrey mentioned earlier, certain people distorting the Truth--which is why i brought this up in the first place. we need to share the whole Truth with love, meekness, and fear to those who seek it, and to those who blaspheme against it.
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Permalink Reply by Sean Dela Cruz on -
Greetings,
I haven't visited grounded for awhile...
Again, there is debate within Christianity as to the means and purpose of God's election. Some say that God elects individuals and others say He only elects nations and/or groups of people. If God elects individuals this means that God is predestining them, electing them into salvation and He is not electing others. This does not sit well with many Christians. On the other hand, some Christians state that God elects based upon a foreknowledge of what an individual will do.
Whichever side you believe, remember that predestination and election are biblical concepts. You must also remember that how you believe or not in predestination and/or election does not affect your salvation. Therefore, you should be gracious to other Christians who differ with you on this subject.
(http://www.carm.org/predestination-and-election)
By the way
I cannot see the true outcome of this discussion.
Is it still being discussed?
I want to see a much more simplified reason
Since no one can sum it all up.
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