Election and Predestination

Alright, so I know right off the bat, this may hit a nerve with some people, but my intention is simply to generate a lively discussion here.

So, without further ado, we know that the doctrine of election is unconditional for mankind (God elects those whom He wills)--but, doesn't that sound kinda unfair to those who might actually be the elect, to know that there are certain people that penultimately are going to heaven, and that some just aren't? It kinda raises the question of free will, and how limited it really is with such a doctrine. In a sense, it also raises the question of, "Could I have possibly rejected God's gift of salvation when it was offered to me?"

Not to say that the Bible has any contradictions, but, we all know that God desires that all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth (I Timothy 2:4), but at the same time, Romans 8:29-30 clearly states:

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born amongst many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

and II Thessalonians 2:13 also states:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God had from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification, of the Spirit, and belief to the Truth."

That said, Paul's clearly implying that there are specific few who will be saved. Now we know this is true because there will be those who'll reject the gift of salvation--but, the key thing here is that He had already predestinated certain individuals before the foundation of the world ("For whom He did foreknow"), and therefore, if someone were to be offered the gift of salvation, and they weren't predestined to be saved, then they would not be saved?

However, Exodus 33:19 strikes me as somewhat unjust;

"I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the Name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

At the same time time, God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). I hate to say this, but I really don't understand this, and it appears to be a contradiction. I'm not say it is a contradiction, I'm just saying it appears to be, simply because I don't understand it (Which is obviously why I've made this a discussion). I'm not doubting God's sovereignty here, of course He knows who will be saved and who won't, but the word "predestinated" kinda confuses me. It seems unjust for Jesus to tell us to preach the Gospel to the whole world (Mark 16:15), and then at the same time, He'll only predestinate those whom He already elected.

Basically, is the call for salvation really for all, or only to the elect? Or, are the elect those who accept the gift of salvation? In other words, did God look from eternity and foresaw who would call upon Jesus and be saved, and that those were the ones He was refering to when speaking to the elect (At the same time, not to imply that it's man's free will that saves him, it's obviously still Jesus)? Better yet, when God refers to the those whom He elects and predestinates, is speaking from a divine perspective which we cannot understand, or is it actually from a human perspective, one which we should be able to understand and see it as black and white (Which is why it seems unjust)?

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mitchell Morris on November 7, 2009 at 7:18pm: God calls all to salvation, but He knows all who be saved so He choosing them from the foundation of the world and those who accept the gift of salvation. I believe God knows everything so He really doesn't choose saying by this is one who is going to saved and this isn't saved. He always has known all before even before it happens.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Taniere Harris on November 9, 2009 at 8:04pm: Amen Mitchell; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey Moorman on November 8, 2009 at 5:50am: Well I think you bring up a very good topic here and everyone who reads what you wrote and ponders those questions has to side with either of the following...
Either you believe that Jesus came to save all and all who chooses to say yes to it will be saved or you can side with those westboro baptist wackos that protest dead soldiers funerals because they believe that because of the scriptures you just posted, that a select few are destined to go to hell and God made them that way because He is God and He can just do that if he feels like it. I don't know about the rest of you but I ask questions. Take that as you will.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on November 8, 2009 at 12:00pm: oh no, don't get me wrong, i would never talk about this unless it's in an appropriate environment where i feel people DO know God's Word very well (ie. right here, haha) and at the same time, it would discourage anyone from accepting God's gift of salvation.

but i agree with you, all who choose to say yes, they must be saying so only because they're genuine about it, and they were elected before the foundation of the world.

strangely, there are churches out there that state there are some who will "try" to come to Christ, but wouldn't be saved because they weren't elected, which upholds God's sovereignty, but at the same time, just as you said, violates many other scriptures that also state God's love and mercy for all, that He desires all should be saved, etc., and at the same time, pretty much implies that man has no free will.

and then there's the flipside of it, where there are churches that do indeed claim that God is sovereign, but at the same time, state that Christ died for all and not just the elect/that God's gift of salvation is only for the elect, which, at the same time, also kinda degrades God's sovereignty because it's like saying God didn't know that this particular individual would receive the Gospel--but then again, implies that God is merciful and that we do have a limited free will.

at the same time, all of this raises the issue of atonement for sins, because, again, there are churches out there that believe that sins were atoned for all and not just the elect, meaning that the crucifixion was done in vain for those who won't accept God's gift of salvation. but on the flipside, there are churches that uphold God's sovereignty and state that the atonement was limited and only for the elect, and ultimately the crucifixion was not done in vain, but that all who were elected, would receive His gift (implying that God would find a way for them to hear the message of the Gospel).; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on November 8, 2009 at 12:01pm: actually, having thought about this a little more, when Paul stated, "For whom He did foreknow," is he implying that God had chosen a select few, or that He knew who would exercise what limited free will they were given to accept God's gift of salvation? (again, at the same time, not saying that it's man's free will that saves him); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Taniere Harris on November 9, 2009 at 8:00pm: God gives us free-will. Though it is His will that non should perish, He knows that some will and those are the ones who have not been elected to be made in the image of His Son Jesus.

To sum it up I believe that the gift of salvation is offered to all to accept, but only some will accept it.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear". (Matt 13:9); ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on November 9, 2009 at 8:57pm: Amen Taniere.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeffrey Moorman on November 8, 2009 at 2:02pm: 1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Now I know this is wrong to say this but this is something that I have fought with a great deal and as wrong it is to think it, I would be lying if I told you otherwise. Every time I hear of the Phelps family protesting a funeral or telling little kids they are going to hell because they weren't "Elect" or that they got caught on camera saying that they "hope everyone else burns"... I don't believe I have ever felt so much rage for a group of individuals who bring so much hate and false doctrine (confusions) to our grounds. Lord forgive me.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Raheel Rajani on November 9, 2009 at 8:18pm: i agree with you.

but to add a little word of encouragement, you're right on, and those who claim to know Jesus and bear fruit as such, their faith is not in vain, for He is the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who had begun a good work in you, will perform it until the Day of Judgement." Philippians 1:6; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Mitchell Morris on November 8, 2009 at 2:05pm: God has never chosen people to Hell; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Art on November 8, 2009 at 3:22pm: I feel terrible that I can't answer this discussion at this time! But, I pray you, give me time, and I shall try and answer you. But, before I go, I leave you with Jesus words: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And again, Jesus said, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Art on November 9, 2009 at 12:43pm: Amen! To this I agree; yet, I believe the Bible still offers us much – much that should not be discarded to purposeful ignorance.; ▶ Reply to This